Photos @ Slutever
A couple months ago, while on a trip to San Francisco, I had the pleasure of being an audience member during the filming of Public Disgrace. This was extremely exciting, as I’m a huge and long-time Public Disgrace fan. (Sorry mom!) If you’re not familiar, PD is a porn site that’s part of the Kink.com empire–Kink being the largest BDSM porn company in the world– that specializes in hardcore, public sex. Most episodes of PD follow a similar pattern–a submissive girl is dragged out in front of an audience, after which she’s stripped, bound, punished, gangbanged, ass-fucked, tortured, etc. Hot, right?
Public Disgrace was founded by Princess Donna, a porn actress/director, and she runs the show on all the PD shoots. So basically in each video Princess Donna acts as the dominant woman, and she controls the humiliation of the female sub by directing how the gangbang ensues. Along with founding Public Disgrace, Donna also founded such classics as BoundGangBangs.com (another fave of mine–can’t get enough of those against-her-will gangbangs these days!), and UltimateSurrender.com, a sexual wrestling reality show (lol). The following is a quote from Princess Donna that I particularly liked, from an interview she did with the Village Voice: “I grew up in a Silence of the Lambs culture, a culture where rape and killing women are very common themes for movies and TV shows. Society isn’t afraid of sex and violence; they are afraid of women owning their own bodies and controlling their own sexuality—which is what happens in BDSM.”
But back to San Francisco. I was there with Richardson magazine, helping out with a project they were doing with Kink, which meant I got to hang out in the Kink studios. Pretty cool, considering it’s the place where the best fetish porn in the world is currently being made. Also, the Kink.com mission is to “demystify and celebrate alternative sexualities,” which I consider an important goal of Slutever too, so being there felt, you know, “meaningful” or whatever.
As I briefly mentioned in the San Francisco episode of the VICE Slutever show, the Kink headquarters is an old military armory. The company purchased The Armory–a giant brick fortress the takes up an entire city block in SF’s Mission district– in 2006, and they’ve since transformed into into an insane bondage playground. The energy inside the place is incredible. When you walk in, as you move through the hallways, it has the appearance and professionalism of any standard film studio. But then you open a door and it’s like, ‘Oh, a woman being fucked by giant machines.’ And then you open another door and two guys are fisting each other. And then behind another door there’s a gangbang. But it’s all very casual, like, “Oh hey I have three dildos in my ass, but sure I’ll shake your hand, welcome to Kink!” #nbd. I was only there for one day, but I’m pretty sure I was involved in more conversations about enemas during my time there than ever before in my entire life. Every time you turned around someone was talking about having just had an enema, or needing to get one later, or once a man just shouted, “Anyone need an enema?” at a group of actors lounging around a set, and everyone just smiled and shook their head like, “Not right now, but thanks for asking!” I can’t lie–that made me feel a little weird. Then there was one point when I was watching this French girl have sex with a fuckmachine, and I started to feel sort of awkward, like “Am I supposed to turn away? Is it creepy if I’m smiling?” But as I looked around the room I realized that I was clearly the only person who was feeling any weirdness, which made me feel even weirder because I was like, “Wait, am I a square?!” Although I suppose it was sort of humbling to be the “normal” one in a sexual situation for a change.
The Kink Armory–impressive yo
Back to Public Disgrace. Since the series is usually filmed in front of an audience, there’s generally a couple hundred people from the San Francisco area invited to be in the crowd, and to partake, to an extent, in the gangbang action. The episode I watched had a house party theme, and lucky me, I got to ride in the production van from the Kink Armory to the shoot location. Also in the van was Princess Donna, pornstars Cherry Torn and Skin Diamond (who were the two female subs about to be publicly disgraced), two male porn actors (who join the crowd and lead the gangbang), and the rest of the crew–cameramen, makeup artist, producers, etc. During the ride one of the male actors–a cute, 23-year-old with curly blonde hair–confessed that this was his first hetero porn scene, and that even though he was straight, he’d only done gay scenes up until now. He seemed pretty nervous, and was asking Donna questions about how it would all go down.
“So, like… are you going to tell me when to fuck the girls?” he asked from the back of the van, his voice shaking. “How do I know when it’s the right time?”
“Yeah, yeah, I’ll help you,” Donna replied, not looking up from her phone.
“OK but like how–”
“Look,” she interrupted him, vaguely annoyed. “The main thing is, just don’t take your dick out if it’s not hard. No one wants a wet noodle–that’s a killjoy. And keep your clothes on. We don’t want you to be the naked person in the room. We want the girls to be the naked people in the room.” After that the boy didn’t ask any other questions, and instead spent the rest of the ride talking to the other male actor about how he might move to Australia because it “seems cool there.”
Meanwhile, I’m in the front of the van with Donna, contemplating whether or not I should fan-out at her about Bound Gang Bangs. I eventually went for it.
“Yeah, oh my god, it’s just the best,” I was saying, eyes wide. “My favorite episode is that one where the girl gets dragged out of that crib thing and then fucked by a group of men in stocking masks.”
“She’s in a cage?”
“No, not a cage, a crib.”
“Huh… I don’t know if I remember that one. Is the girl crying?
“Um, she’s not really crying but she’s life screaming for her life. I think they’re in a foreign country?”
“Oh, the Russian birthday rape! Yeah, I remember that. Really fun shoot.”
Princess Donna in makeup
Once we arrived at the location, it was time for hair and makeup. While in the makeup chair, someone asked Cherry Torn the inevitable question: What do your parents think about what you do? Cherry just shrugged. “Given my troubled youth, by the time my mom found out I did porn, she was just like, “At least it’s legal.”
The heavily dolled-up makeup artist was suddenly very interested. “Oooh, tell us about your troubled youth!” she said excitedly.
“Well, I just really liked sleeping with 40 year old men off the internet,” said Cherry. “From 15 on I was a total jailbait ho, basically.”
“Oh, I love that!” said the makeup artist, clapping her hands.
“Then at one point I ran away for a month with this 42 year old guy, and my mom, who works in law enforcement, ended up finding out where I was and came and found me in this really spectacular manner. But the real eye-opener for my mom was when I did this long interview for Huster’s Taboo, and the production assistant stupidly sent my free copies to the address on my license, which was my mom’s house. Inside was a photo of me expelling a milk enema, and me talking about how I want black eyes, how I like getting my ass reamed, old dudes, slavery–all of it. My mom was like, ‘They make some of this stuff up just for the magazine, right?’ I was like, ‘Yes, yes they do!’”
Cherry and Skin pre-gangbang
Casual pre-gangbang photoshoot!
By the time the show was about to start, the venue was packed with more than a hundred people. Princess Donna got up and addressed the crowd. “Feel free to get involved!” she said with a smile. “You can touch the models, slap them, touch their boobs, you can put your fingers in their pussies and their asses, but no fluid exchange,” she said sternly. “And no telling the models that they’re bad at their jobs. OK, enjoy!” I found those boundaries sort of strange–ass fisting from stranger: OK; professional insult from stranger: NOT OK–but I went along with it. And so did everyone else. I was genuinely surprised by how involved the crowd got, how comfortable everyone was in the situation, and just the overwhelming positivity of the atmosphere. I mean, I know this is “San Francisco sex mecca” or whatever, but the people in the audience weren’t your stereotypical sex freaks. They were hipsters. It was literally a hipster gangbang. And it was SO fun. Afterward I was having a conversation with someone about the possibility of something like Public Disgrace, or just interactive public sex in general, becoming a socially acceptable form of entertainment. Like, “What should we do on Friday–bar or public gangbang?” It seems a bit extreme, but that night seemed proof to me that it’s not an implausible future.
View from my hotel–Bye!
I just wanted to let you know that it was a pleasure having you at the shoot, I love the article, and you’re really really pretty. One question though, why did you leave out the part where I offered to get you gang banged?! Offer still stands by the way :) And the shoot comes out next week.
Xoxo
Princess Donna
You turned down a gang bang??
Karley in a gangbang, now that’s something id pay to see!
ahhahaha #nbd
is that terry richardson
Lol is that Terry Richardson in the 12th picture!?
yup, totally, and in the 3rd
OMG! It’s actually him as well! #notthatsurprisingtbh
Please tell me Terry Richardson wasn’t in the background of that doggy style shot…
I’m slightly worried about hygiene. So basically anyone can shove their fingers in any holes of the girls? What if their fingers are dirty and yucky or do they use gloves? Plus, the quote of P. Donna does not make sense: Society isn’t afraid of sex and violence; they are afraid of women owning their own bodies and controlling their own sexuality
I’m a woman and I that whole thing doesn’t appeal to me at all, I’m more worried about the women’s vaginas and hope they don’t start bleeding or being really roughed out at some point. But as long as they are fine with it, okay, but please spare me out of it – on the other side of the spectrum is indeed the ”public” and I want to be spared out, thanks.
I wonder how much the girls earn and hope they all enjoy it at least.
i thought that too! dirty terry
also new banner sucks
AMAZING. Thx for this Karls!
banner is terrible but skin diamond’s like my fave pornstar ever
I’m not digging the new banner either but cool article. I’ve always had a fascination with Kink.com so it’s cool to see a behind-the-scenes look into the magic.
Photo’s are great! I love Kink.com!!!
Jeeeeez, people jumping up on your banner like they have to marry it #relaxbros
BUT I love all this work you’re doing with Kink. Ultimate Surrender is my go-to porn and it’s super great to see the awesome people that make it. (Minus the enemas… that’s kinda buzz kill. Hygienically necessary, but buzz kill.)
Karley, I think you are so cool, and you are an inspiration to me! What can I do to join your posse??? I feel like sexual freaks need to join forces
Karley! You’re like an inspiration to me! How can I join your posse??? I feel like us sexual deevs need to join together…….!
“they are afraid of women owning their own bodies and controlling their own sexuality—which is what happens in BDSM.”
Strictly from a psychological perspective, this isn’t always the case. It’s often your negative emotions and thoughts taking siege over your sexuality and tampering with it. For instance, there’s little difference in motivation between a girl being called worthless before being furthered degraded and treated like trash and a teenage girl calling herself worthless before she cuts or burns herself as a way of devaluing the self. It’s emotional regulation done in a self-destructive way. I disagree that it is always controlling their own sexuality, especially when sexuality is held hostage by outside factors, which it is, like it or not. I just wanted to give my psych major two-cents; I plan on being a sexual therapist and it bothers me when people are overly-willing to accept every form of sexuality without critically thinking of the etiology and psychological implications, and that statement flashed red for me.
You’re too smart to be here.
And while I’d like to be entirely cool about Public “Disgrace,” there is nothing empowering about being referred to as a “euro trash whore.” Why are women nearly always the trash whores, for starters? Why are women on these websites perpetually referred to as “defiled,” “trash,” “stupid whores,” and the like? I think this is a bigger problem that we’d like to think; it’s an indicator of internal self-estimation. You don’t just wake up and enjoy being treated like trash on the street, being spit on, getting called a cum dump, and being degraded. I find it truly worrying that sexuality is being equated with such literal sexual negativity (not that your particular experience was degradation, however!). I think it can be truly equated with the lowered self-esteem and increased rates of depression in women as prevalent in society that women request this treatment; you cannot justify degradation (as seen on the Public Disgrace website) as a valid form of sexuality without also justifying self-mutiliation, as the internal processes are similar if not identical in their formation of two different defense mechanisms.
It’s an important discussion you open here. But human sexuality comes in strange forms…
get over yourself. like men dont’ like to be degraded? please google that and find out.
its a natural human thing. relax. its part of sex.
you “think” it can be equated with lowered self-esteem and increased rates of depression? sounds pretty scientific to me!
have you ever been involved in the military and seen what goes on there? men are pretty much gluttons for punishment as well. its human. i applaud your instinct to try and protect women, but sometimes you need to just chill the f*ck out. oh yeah. and this is voluntary. sheesh. rela.
People like you make me sad. Anyone is allowed here to voice their opinion without some knob coming along and grunting : ‘Ey chill the fuck out grunt grunt moan moan sheeesh relaa bruv’ which kills any attempt of having an interesting and serious discussion which are sort of essential if you want to become a bit wiser? But I doubt you do.
‘Part of sex’? I’m sure there are loads of people who have great sex lives and don’t do any BDSM stuff. Frankly, I don’t need it, I’m happy without it.
But don’t judge others for being into kinky stuff, which you do. BDSM can be tons of fun without the participants having mental issues as you suggest.
Sorry I’m not Lily and in my post I didnt say anything negative about BDSM?
‘Part of sex’? I’m sure there are loads of people who have great sex lives and don’t do any BDSM stuff. Frankly, I don’t need it, I’m happy without it.
I might have interpreted more into this sentence than you intended to, but it comes across as demeaning towards people into BDSM. That’s all.
It has nothing to do with wanting to protect women. I am just as against men being degraded, or those who identify otherwise. “Human sexuality comes in strange forms” is a cop-out; it’s as if no one wants to accept and realize it can and often does say something about your internal conflicts and character. It’s not a “natural human thing,” I recommend researching Freud (or reading his Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality, namely the section on perversion as a construct versus perversion as perversion) and books such as the Politics of Lust. I believe it CAN (hence, I “think,” apologies as I did type in a bit of a scramble) come from lowered self-esteem, but it also comes from a highly repressed society. For instance, if a woman is so hung-up over sex, being degraded will release her from responsibility from pleasure (as highlighted in the aforementioned book), as she can only be sexual if she also valueless. How “sex-positive” is that! Your “just relax” argument truly doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
Lily, it’s just hedonism, get over it. Some people aren’t bothered about pursuing the extremes of pleasure, but some people are. For those that are, arbitrary terms like ‘degrading acts’ have little meaning, pleasure is the chief value by which acts are judged and people will pursue pleasure by what ever means. People aren’t going to change, people have been surrendering their bodies to the extremes of pleasure for as long as humans have existed.
Fortunately society has embedded in us numerous taboos that give many humans great pleasure to overstep. You can see things as degrading but that’s just your viewpoint and has no meaning beyond your mind and those like you. For the rest of us, we just see taboos that can be broken to gain ever greater pleasure, you can base your judgement s of acts upon ‘respect,’ but many people won’t they’ll just judge the value of an act based on the pleasure it brings. And besides, deriving pleasure from that which is supposed to hold power over us in a negative form (such as terms like slut or whore), is a form of empowerment in its self. We derive pleasure from it rather than letting it control us and making us live in fear of other peoples opinions. So whatever, you can moralize all you want, but people will always be getting off on playing the role of the worthless whore etc., because its fun, sorry if you can’t comprehend that but it makes sense to a great many of the rest of us. :)
Perfectly worded, thank you.
If it is just hedonism, why is pedophilia (say if the child enjoys it as well) and zoophilia (if the animal does not mind/enjoys it as well) not accepted as well if the two of them enjoy it? Might be a step far ahead but there is a reason why people disagree with what Kink does even though two or more people enjoy what they are doing. One of the main reason is sexism – and though we tend to see ourselves as educated – there is a lot of sexism even in Western societies and moreso in developing countries. You might not feel that these sort of sex industries have any effect on you – but it does on many many others starting on the subtlest levels.
An example I would give is Princess Donna- she’s good-looking and successful in what she’s doing. She’s selling the image (or she is the image) of a dominating woman. What if she was slightly obese and not so good-looking? Would Kink be equally successful and ‘hipsterish’ if it was run with the (marketing) image of her blonde make-up artist in picture 5? The sex and fashion industry is very selective (especially when it comes to women) and reducing women to their looks only. That has an effect on kids and young children – companies selling t-shirts such as ‘In maths I am decoration’, or creating stereotypes – it is acceptable for a girl to play around with guns but if a boy enjoys playing with dolls it is not seen as ‘manly’, creating the macho type (men) and the pretty little accessoire (women). There are other obstacles in the working life: Companies prefer to employ a man with a child (the man is seen as being in a stable relationship) than women whether with or without children. Companies prefer to employ men because they are seen as more reliable and efficient. The majority of politicians and people who run the country are white men. Why’s that? Oh, is it because the woman most lilely wanted to become a mother and had to give up her job? Anyway…
I think the people who speak out against this sex industry are concerned about their responsibility and them caring for others and the imprint you leave on future generation – but why do, when you rather want to enjoy yourself?
So I see their point and your point. Long post, just tried to bring some closer understanding to why there are a lot of people out there who are concerned and rightly so.
“why is pedophilia (say if the child enjoys it as well) and zoophilia (if the animal does not mind/enjoys it as well) not accepted as well if the two of them enjoy it”
The first reason is that most of the time, they don’t.
The other reason is that children may be able to experience arousal or pleasure, but they’re certainly not able to handle adult codes of seduction or power dynamics ; they are too young to fully understand adult sexuality. Which is why a child is deemed incapable of giving full consent to sexual intercourse with an adult, which is why, no matter how much the kid seems to “like it”, IT IS ABUSE.
And animals are not capable of voicing consent altogether, which brings us to the same conclusion.
tl;dr : Consent. The major difference between BDSM and paedo/zoophilia, aka. staged abuse and actual abuse, is CONSENT.
“but many people won’t they’ll just judge the value of an act based on the pleasure it brings.”
So by this logic, what’s stopping me from stealing every chance I get (it’s fine as long as I’m not caught!), fucking my best friend’s boyfriend, and picking on someone weaker than me for an ego boost?
That’s a highly utilitarian view of ethics. You could argue getting off to being called a worthless whore is empowering, but I could just as easily argue it isn’t because it shows that you’ve weakly internalized it. You give a shit what society says, you care that it holds power over you. How is that strength?
I base my judgments not merely on respect but on the etiology of human cruelty. I see no reason to respect cruel people on moral grounds (though I will still treat them with consideration). I also see no reason to respect hedonism, as it’s far too permissive. I could justify a number of actions on the grounds of hedonism. You have no philosophical argument to build off that.
And good call on the sexism. Pornography affects the way we view others (and by the way, I’m not anti-porn). The degradation of women is rampant. Hell, there’s porn with women being choked until they vomit and called worthless cum dumps, and yet people really think this is natural sexuality? Give me one good reason to respect a man who gets off to this. Give me one good reason that doesn’t include some description of positive pain to not call this a variant of self-harm, because that shows a shallow understanding of the nature and manifestation of self-mutilitation (which is often perceived or felt as positive to those who cannot regulate their emotions in a way that does not injure the self).
“We derive pleasure from it rather than letting it control us and making us live in fear of other peoples opinions.”
You think you’re much more free than you are.
Also worth nothing is that porn in which men are humiliated is often called “forced feminization.” Because to be a female (or to fit into society’s ideal of femininity) is the ultimate degradation, and porn continually reinforces this.
I’m just disturbed beyond belief by some of the comments, for instance:
“I also loved the parts that she was spitted on her face and in the mouth and especially by you. I love it when you spit your slaves and you drool saliva on them be it in their face, their mouth, their tits, cunt…I know that is sick for some people but I would say that is an extreme act of love which I also passionately love!”
We have names for people who equate degradation with love… I’m sorry, but if this sounds healthy, please explain to me, in detail with psychological studies backing your claim, why you believe this to be true. Because I have never once heard anything positive. within my years in the psych-major department, come from believing pain is love. This contorted thinking is the basis of reaction formation.
I think it’s great that you care about these women’s wellbeing, but really, you can’t see inside these people’s heads.
You want proof that this doesn’t harm these women but what solid proof is there that it DOES harm them? It’s totally possible that some number of women who enjoy degradation are also mentally harmed by it, but I have no reason to assume that that’s the norm.
I think the fact that this is alien to you is where your objection comes from, and I don’t mean that as an insult at all you can’t help that it’s unfamiliar to you.
We should respect others enough to trust them to make their own choices about their sex lives, to do otherwise would be degrading.
It’s not necessarily alien to me. I’ve done quite a bit of research and gotten quite a few anecdotes. Does this mean I’m the authority? Surely not. But do you believe the psychological reasons behind wanting to be punched in the face, spit on, and having “worthless whore” written on your body are sane? Truly?
Because that sounds like self-harm. I believe it is self-harm. And getting down to the gist of it, I despise living in a world where people have sadistic desires to watch the degradation of others. This is no different than bullying in intent. I thought that as human beings we were supposed to transcend the state of being mere animals, not bask in it, and I have no respect for that. I don’t believe most men who seek female degradation respect women, and why should they? Some women seek abuse. There’s a chilling comment on one of those video that essentially says “Why does she look like she’s enjoying this? This isn’t degrading her (an 18-year-old) enough. She should be crying.They might as well call it Public Fun instead of Public Disagree.” What kind of mindset do you have to have to want to watch someone suffer instead of enjoy themselves? How can people justify this?
It’s also worth mentioning that while I find degrading others immoral, I’m in no way, shape, or form religious, as I find religion tends to be degrading toward women AND men as well. I would like to hear others’ opinions on this, because I can’t find any reason to respect this behavior any more than any other behavior intended to browbeat and harass.
The way I see it: Princess Donna’s work is an embodiment of misogyny. I.e. sexual objectification of and violence against women. Just it’s carried out by a woman and willing women take part in it. In a way, it’s a parody of society as women tend to be sexually objectified everywhere and there is evidence for a high level of violence against women on a daily basis. The disturbing thing (for me) is that Public Disgrace glamourizes it. The issue is whether or not PD/kink ought to have a sense of social responsibility. Theyre a porn company. They sell sex. I guess not.
This behaviour is not intended to browbeat and harass. Both men and women enjoy this and its completely consensual. You don’t have to be mentally disturbed or emotionally scarred to enjoy BDSM. Not everyone equates love and sex, its an outdated view left over from when abstinence was the only form of contraception.
‘I think it can be truly equated with the lowered self-esteem and increased rates of depression in women as prevalent in society that women request this treatment’ do you have any evidence to back up such a bold statement? You refer to Freudian views, but as a psychology major you should know that many of his ideas are outdated or theories which cannot be proven empirically. I disagree with everything about your statement. BDSM does NOT decrease your self-esteem, if anything it raises it. And as for depression, sex releases endorphins, the more you enjoy it, the more are released; so for people who enjoy BDSM if anything they are less likely to be depressed.
I would recommend that you go along to a fetish night/club and actually have some first hand experience before passing judgement.
“But do you believe the psychological reasons behind wanting to be punched in the face, spit on, and having “worthless whore” written on your body are sane? Truly?”
I do know that there is a lot more to the above mentioned acts. It’s a physical sensation, first and foremost. For some/most, the mental element is important too, but the physical experience itself can cause sexual arousal without being linked to a kink/fetish.
There’s that.
Plus, speaking from some experience, BDSM does not equate mental problems. Very sane and wonderfully empowered people practice it, find peace and intense lust in it. I can’t back it with any studies – since I’m no psych-student – but from personal interaction I know this to be true.
By your comparison the people that enjoy watching Public Disgrace (not Disagree) are to be put on the same level as someone watching a boxing match. Or a Kung-Fu flick, or about every other mainstream movie out these days.
Have fun declaring the whole society to be truly disturbed.
I don’t believe for a second having something derogatory written on your body is merely a physical sensation, or even primarily a physical sensation, as per that logic anything could be written and it would produce the same sensation.
I agree with you heavily Liz. I have no problems with public gang bangs. If that’s all this was, I would be fine with it.
Here’s the thing- humans are inherently selfish and cruel. Left to our own devices without a trace of a moral upbringing, many will exploit the hell out of others. Sadism is not uncommon. Everyone has sadistic or cruel thoughts at one time or another, be it after you get in a fight with the boyfriend and want to stab him with a nearby kitchen knife or when you’re depressed (and the state of depression is highly self-defacing, much like this). However, we, in our attempt to fully actualize ourselves, attempt to defy these primordial urges.
Sadism at its heart is pleasure from the perceived devaluation of another being for ego-gratification. Someone who derives pleasure from the suffering of others (as the dude in that truly disturbing comment) is essentially a bully. Why do we admonish the bully but praise someone who channels these same urges into sexuality? Merely because of consent? Because people throughout history have consented to a number of things. Sharon Lopatka agreed to be sexually tortured to death. By this logic, she just had a fetish. If I act on urges to self-harm and ask my boyfriend to burn me with a straightener, does this justify the action if he agrees? Because the etiology and results are strikingly similar to masochism- psychological relief. It’s hypocritical to justify one and not the other. Unfortunately, I speak from some experience here.
And yes, I believe people who many mainstream torture porn films are getting in touch with the sides of themselves that enjoy the suffering of others. This does not make it right. This does not mean I should respect them (especially if they’re getting off on the blood and guts, which is frankly frightening), for the same reason I won’t respect the douchebag down the street who keyed my car, for the same reason I won’t respect a thief.
Of course some of Freud’s theories are considered outdated (or that he didn’t consider context enough in some of his case studies), but many are still practiced or revised by psychoanalysts of today. My personality teacher, for one.
I never once said sex needed to be equated with love, but I am highly against equating love with tolerating pain for another. The crux of my argument is that it’s using cruelty against another human being, something I believe is becoming far too permissive in society and is a primordial urge that exists in everyone. Just because someone enjoys something doesn’t mean their enjoyment is beyond the bounds of criticism. For instance, pedophiliac thoughts and fantasies in men are not that uncommon (and I mean truly pedophiliac, not lusting for an underage teenage girl), according to various studies including ones that gauge penile reactivity. Disturbing, definitely, and up for analyzation.
I am not debating that some people enjoy it. I am questioning their enjoyment. Granted, I’d rather they find someone like-minded to participate with them than to coerce an unwilling person, and as long as no one is forcing me with a gun to my head to respect this behavior, then go for it. I don’t have any hard evidence to back that up, no. Unfortunately, psych isn’t hard evidence. I based that on what I’ve read in abnormal psych.
I do have first-hand judgment. Been there, done that. I’ve also read far too much on the internet. One story in particular disturbed the hell out of me, one guy recalling his girlfriend who wanted to be told that he hated her, she was worthless, nobody, etc during sex and how disturbed he was by it, and then people in the comments saying “oh she’s just kinky!!!”. Where does critical analysis come into play here? Why is one form of harm okay and another not? Why is everything justified as kink?
I still don’t believe for a second men who seek female degradation porn respect or have had positive experiences with women, especially not with pornography like Max Hardcore’s in existence. There are men who will admit it. One man responded to a question asking why some men like watching women being degraded on YA! in a surprisingly earnest way: he said because he felt like he was a “beta” male, he enjoyed watching women he perceived as inferior being further degraded because it made him feel better about himself. I believe this is the mentality of many.
Kate: while you raise some valid points about bdsm in general, “I recommended” (err its actually totally up to u) that you look at some of the trailers of the public disgrace videos – one in particular acts out a scene of a brutal gang RAPE of a woman (note: the actress may be fine with it but her character certainly isn’t) – that’s the sexual violence Im referring to.
Liz: Sites like PD and Bound Gangbangs act out fantasies that are around (male and female alike). Many literotica writers on the net (the majority being females) write about their fantasies of rape, of degradation, etc.
I understand that we look at those fantasies with worry and suspect a bad upbringing. This will be true for some. But, I’d rather have someone deal with their issues in a somewhat empowering way (it’s their fantasy after all, they are in charge, 100% of the time) than suppressing it. Confronting those urges (and yes, living them out in a somewhat safe environment such as a porn shoot for PD) is always better than the suppression of it.
But, a lot of healthy (in terms of mental medical conditions) people have those fantasies too. Where they come from, we don’t know. This is where studies should be made, but without the prejudgement shown by Lily and Liz. The human psyche is deep and endlessly interesting and we understand just a tiny part of it. The condemnation of such acts based upon prejudice and a malleable science with imperfect ways of dissecting its “guinea pigs” is sloppy and gives you a bad rep.
I notice that you’re not addressing the mentality of men who would seek female degradation porn (because fucking a woman and shoving her head in the toilet as you call HER a cum toilet is empowerment).
My condemnation is mainly this, in a nutshell: I’m tired of being told I should respect these people and their choices. I respect no one, and I mean no one, who derives pleasure from degrading another human being and seeks this pleasure out. If I ever have a guy call me worthless in bed, he’s going to leave my apartment without a penis. It genuinely disgusted me the first time I saw degradation porn (apparently women are fuck pigs, anal is supposed to hurt, and facials are about putting someone in their place), and that was one of the first times I ever self-harmed, because I finally realized the cruelty humans are capable of enjoying. So what if people enjoy it? There are people who enjoy a number of things, there are people who consent to being eaten postmortem, or consent to abusive relationships (and yes, that is consent, and some women even enjoy them through their “masculinity as abuse” lens). Consent isn’t the point. The point is that humans are sadistic in the first place makes me question the nature of humanity and believe that many humans are genuinely just scum of the earth.
“And animals are not capable of voicing consent altogether, which brings us to the same conclusion.”
Uh, cows can’t voice consent to being kept under inhumane conditions prior to slaughter. Snakes can’t voice consent to having their skin peeled off alive. No animal can consent to being killed, or even consent to a number of mundane things we don’t think twice about. Birds can’t consent to being caged, and many will self-mutiliate via feather plucking in their depression. Dogs can’t consent to being kept chained outside Hm, yet bestiality is SO wrong on some many levels.
! I agree with you .
“I still don’t believe for a second men who seek female degradation porn respect or have had positive experiences with women…”
Lily, thank God you exist. This blog is obviously very interesting from a sociological standpoint but I’m always alarmed by how far people will go to reserve their criticism on matters of sexuality. I don’t think it’s an inability so much as an unwillingness to critique, particularly in our society, which prizes nonjudgmental self-expression above all else and at all costs—even at the expense of others. If you so much as express dissent or skepticism, you’re dismissed as conservative or a prude.
But, intuitively, it’s always struck me that participation in BDSM points to past trauma and underlying emotional issues—or at best, a lack of identity brought on by a chaotic or incomplete family dynamic. I don’t for a moment buy that these girls are OK. Cherry Torn has admitted to having a troubled childhood (within the scope of this article) and there’s a bizarre photo of Skin Diamond circulating on the internet which is meant as a promo shot for her “personal brand” or whatever, but where you can literally see cutting scars running up and down her arm because, apparently, some bozo forgot to Photoshop them out (it’s not intentional).
People may claim that extreme sex is a way of getting in touch with our primordial desires, but I would argue the exact opposite. Any time you get into BDSM or other forms of role-play, you’re dealing with something that’s an artificial construct—that exists a barrier between you and your partner(s) and prevents you making a from sincere connection.
Having someone tweak your nipples with a plexiglass rod or call you debasing names is fundamentally a kind of insincerity. But if all you know is trauma and betrayal, it’s the only way you’re able to communicate—hence all these “alt” pornstars and guys who don’t respect women.
Also, I forgot to add, but it’s really creepy how people wear their “troubled childhoods” on their sleeves nowadays, like one of so many other identity signifiers you just consume and cast off—a latte or a Proenza bag or something.
Who is that guy who bangs one of the girls doggy style? He looks quite handsome. Anyone know his name?
Mary Sue it’s Xander Corvus!
Love the post Karley!
Is this art or something? I don’t understand the distinction between this and middle aged fat men going to Amsterdam to buy hookers. Prefixing stuff with the word ‘hipster’ doesn’t make it different.
It’s run by a woman so its got the feminist and powerwomen tag on it so it makes it socially acceptable at least in their eyes.
middle aged fat men buying hookers = creepy by normal standards as most girls who do it are poor as shit or are too lazy to find a proper job and have no aspirations but there are a few bits of ’empowered’ women who find it hot
hot young men fucking hookers = #hipster, #empowered, #feminist
conclusion: sex sellz when youre young. if you are a woman and aged 30 it becomes a bit dangerous and only a few survive in that sex business. if youre a woman aged 35 you will be in the mature section of porn but basically your time has run out and people will secretly laugh at you for being ‘pathetic’.
OK sorry, what?: “Most girls who do it are poor as shit or are too lazy to find a proper job and have no aspirations.”
This is not true. Yes there are many prostitutes who are “poor as shit” and sell sex because they haven’t been afforded better options, but I know a lot of women, especially women in our society, who work in the sex industry to SUPPORT their aspirations, not in place of them. Selling sex is good money, way more money than waitressing or whatever other jobs most young creative people do to support themselves while pursuing an artistic vocation. Why work a week in a restaurant when you could make the same money in an hour in the sex industry? I call that resourceful, not pathetic.
But from my experience (and everyone’s experience is different) the majority of girls who did it were very poor and/or had no aspirations. It was as simple as that: Using their bodies as objects to sell.
I worked in the sex industry as well to support my aspirations and because I didn’t want a job that paid minimum wage. I stopped after two years because the effect it had on me: I felt objectified. I was criticized and judged by my looks only. I was treated as an object: Was I good enough? Although I see myself as quite ‘strong’, it somehow broke me down and made me very insensitive. It is not easy somehow to be a human being when you grow up in a city and grow up with the mindset that looks are very important (depending on what you want to do).
Of course, I can only talk about myself and it’s only one experience of mine. I’m not saying that everyone who works in the sex industry will start to feel insecure and get depressed etc.
If the sex industry is so empowering, why don’t I see older ladies (they are more likely a niche?) Why does it not seem to empower those women over 40 and 50?
But after having worked there, I do stand by my statement that MOST girls there are coming from a poor background and see it as ‘easy money’ with no other aspirations at all. I talked to them. And I live in the same society as you. Unless you are referring to living in another sort of society where sex is glamour and fun and everyday focus.
Hot young men fucking hot young women. I’m not sure why you are referring to the hot young women as hookers.
anyone else think Princess Donna resembles Kim Kardashian?!
i bet that hallway smelled ike pussy
ER: I dont think you should be making judgments on what ever intentions or motivations the actresses involved in those scenes have. The fact is we simply dont know. I do believe I put out a neutral view (as objective as you can be on these things) in saying that the scenes I saw on PD depict sexual violence. I pointed out that personally, I found the gang rape scene disturbing. I never attempted to psychologize about it or even made any value judgments on the people involved in its making. I don’t think that shutting down a debate is healthy – as the fact is we simply don’t know the wider social effects that this has. Studies are inconclusive because it’s just too hard to study! Again, the issue of whether or not sites like PD should have any social responsibility is not clear cut. It is a complex issue which I don’t think polarizing two opposite camps, for/against, helps to resolve.
Absolutely. This is a conversation worth having. But it feels like Lily (and I might have confused the two of you somewhere in there) just wanted to make the point that only unhealthy people enjoy BDSM. This I cannot sign off on. But yes, the conversation is open. Please go on.
That blonde girl Cherry Torn probably felt so empowered that she decided to get some breast implants.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/
omg i was in sf last week cassualy staying in the mission area, how could i miss seeing this building :( so sad
‘demystify and celebrate alternative sexualities’…really?
Can they just drop the pretence, all the performers look pretty similar, there’s no female to male trans people or older people, like it’s OK, just call it porn.
No one is being challenged here, no one watches this stuff and becomes more enlightened about alternative sexualities, 99.99% of the people who pay the subscription are white middle aged men, this is a celebration of hetro male sexuality if anything, which is fine I guess, just don’t pretend you’re doing a public service!
BDSM or whatever it’s called is all fantasy. if a woman was brutally gang-raped in real life, it wouldn’t be hot, cool, or fun. this is where i see all of the sexual play as being incongruent with real life. i don’t see it as being healthy promoting all of this fantastical play just to get off. i think it’s more empowering for a woman to be able to have orgasms from thought only vs having to have several men fondle her and fuck her and suck her and beat her and whatever else. it’s animalistic, i get that – but the person in me that is striving to become something meaningful, self-actualized, or enlightened, or well, just plain HEALTHY, doesn’t see BDSM as part of that. it’s like OK, let me act like an animal for a bit (just for the fun of it) and then return to my daily life. it’s fake & the ultimate form of POSERY.
Actually as you can see its only Donna who does stuff to the girls (i thought everyone was allowed to touch them). Its seems like the majority of the viewers are professional photographers
what an interesting discussion! props to lily for pushing her point of view.
i basically think girls are capable of doing anything for a buck, PD no exception. maybe for them personally they feel a sense of empowerment that stems from extreme pleasure boost that is both physical/ego/even spiritually stimulating. i can understand that. doesn’t mean i personally identify/agree or would use it as the go-to self-empowerment tool. I guess I am more ‘square’ in that way because I believe in things like integrity, the female as goddess and not mere object (esp not one of hatred and ridicule).
now i’m going to say this and it’s going to be really intense and kinda off topic a little, but circa 9 million women were burned during the middle ages on suspicious of witchery; the term ‘witch’ meaning women who were healers, women with specialized knowledge, women who held positions of authority. imagine the blow in which gynocide has taken to our loss of knowledge: women in positions of authority like medicine, politics, science, mathematics, religion, the arts. but also to our sense of self-worth: the total devastation of female power.
maybe extreme hatred and distrust of femininity is something that most likely still exists deep in the human psyche, after all, we are still recovering. i do believe that the ironic play on female degradation only reinforces that – women who reinforce that degradation themselves are okay-ing it, which personally, i don’t agree with….
HOWEVER i can accept/trust that there is a rightful place for this; that we are at a point now where we (some of us) are open and evolved enough to analyze porn and PD and in effect air out the deep recesses of the human psyche, discuss openly the fucked up innerworkings of people’s minds….. if sexual arousal is all about ego then what is defining the ego? what defines the ego is not necessarily individual but learned from the communities around us.
so maybe it is art, and maybe it is also just a display of same-old hetero norm, fucked up human psyche.
anyway i don’t know where i’m going with this, hope it some/any of it makes any sense. Xx
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22643862
i guess this is the sort of thing about social responsibility being discussed…
I am a submissive woman whom enjoys painful pleasure and humiliation. I had a fabulous childhood, I was incredibly loved. Completely mid class, safe and loving up bringing. I was always told how smart and capable I am. I however simply do not enjoy sex without a power exchange or some form of pain. There are no horrific life experiences in my past.
I very much enjoy PD, sex and submission and several other of kink.com offerings.
To insinuate that only the broken enjoy bdrm is complete horse crap.